Deaf Gone ASL Gone?
by webmaster on Jan.09, 2009, under Politics
Deaf Gone ASL Gone?
There are some people who feel that ASL is more important than Deaf and other feel that ASL is as important as Deaf and they depend on each other.
Please be advised that I have right to publish or deny your comments.
I also emphasize that I will not accept any personal attacks to anyone at all.
Thanks
Deafchip
18 Comments for this entry
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Canada
January 9th, 2009 on 3:25 pm
Interesting discussion. I would like to add one thing. Native Americans used sign language to be able to communicate with other tribes not sharing the same oral languages. They created manual language to fill a communication gap with other hearing people, By the way, was there much documentation about deaf Native Americans in 1600′s and 1700′s?
Unfortunately, since they were taught not to use any other language except oral and written English during the mandatory cultural reprogramming, the sign language and their oral languages are almost never used.
If the cultural indoctrination of the Native Americans wasn’t forced extensively over the centuries by Caucasians, would the sign language still be in use among them?
January 9th, 2009 on 4:34 pm
DeafChip –
You are right! ASL (or any other natural sign language) cannot and will not exist without Deaf people. We created the language, we use it, and we preserve it, because we know that is what works for our visual and communicative needs. Without us, there will be no ASL or other signed language.
Would CODAs preserve ASL? Maybe one generation, then after that not many will even remember it. Would Hearing people who use Baby Signs preserve ASL? They do not even know ASL grammar! They may preserve a few words, but the language will be gone — it will just be a few signs.
ASL would become a dead language, known only by linguists studying it as a dead language, without us Deaf people!
January 9th, 2009 on 5:55 pm
Yeehaw!!!
Deaf and ASL.
They Rock!
Forever.
Good Discussion, David.
January 9th, 2009 on 6:26 pm
While there has been plenty of linguistic study of ASL for it to be considered a true language with its own grammar, syntax, idioms, etc., this has only been happening since Stokoe and the ’60s. There is still so much for mainstream linguistics to learn about ASL.
I’m a hearing signer saying, and I don’t claim that hearing people can’t be native, fluent signers (not that I am a native signer myself). But I do believe the linguistic mysteries still locked up in ASL are to be learned from Deaf native signers.
January 9th, 2009 on 7:42 pm
You’re singing…oops… signing… to the choir, brother!
Language is inextricably tied to the people that spawns that specific language. Also, the culture a people develops/grows into shapes the language that is used.
Therefore, ASL is tied to Deaf Culture, and Deaf Culture is born from the experience of Deaf people. Hearing people wouldn’t be able to sustain ASL since they don’t have the actual Deaf EXPERIENCE. In other words, I agree with you, David.
Happy New Year, by the way.
Shel
January 9th, 2009 on 9:33 pm
It’s soooooo good to see you again in the video!
Wonderful discussion, thank you! Thank you, MZ for adding something about Native Americans’ culture and sign language.
January 9th, 2009 on 11:18 pm
Happy New Year, Cheers! WOW! I am glad your return to DeafRead while you were on hitaus.
Absolutely, I agreed with your hypothesis in perspective of two different groups. I’d rather to choose Deaf/ASL group. In that group including some of our readers, viewers, and commenters, we experienced from our birth/eventually become deaf through the path of “self-cultural-absorbing language” childhood/adulthood as we are living in a natural environent for over 300 years.
In the same manner, most people moved to North America from other countries and remained their own culture and language in preservance that cannot be fade away. It’s hard to break their customs. However, their language would apply to English that will improve their writing and reading skills for generations. Respectfully, we can learn from others to others.
our unique language especially deaf-identity are essentially living in our lifetime.
Your great topical discussion brought our attention. I truly appreciated marvelously. Keep up with your next topic discussion.
Cheers,
Nick
January 10th, 2009 on 4:09 am
Yup. I think people in the far future will replace their hand gestures with ASL since they will finally catch on to our ancient language. I understand some people still communicate via Morse code cuz like ASL, it still makes sense!
January 10th, 2009 on 2:37 pm
I think that your position is still debatable. Both sides are possible although the people who are deaf will find it much easier than the hearing people to continue the usage of a signed language.
I would like to add to what Mishka Zena wrote. The other group of hearing people that used sign language (or signs) is the monks who used monastic sign languages. Some said that what they used is not really a signed language. Regardless, this shows that it is possible for a signed language not to depend on the existence of deafness.
Other thing that is not often mentioned is bimodal communication where people use both voice and signs. This is other perspective that supports the possibility for the signed languages not depending on the existence of deafness.
In any way, the blogger and all commenters have interesting thoughts.
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
January 10th, 2009 on 6:24 pm
DeafChip:
I agree that without Deaf people, ASL would also be gone. You need both, because both are part of the culture.
Languages – even dead ones like Latin – are only “around” because people use them in some form. Therefore, a language depends on people being around to use them. A language is used to communicate, so a language is pointless without people.
January 10th, 2009 on 8:09 pm
Right on! Evidently I am in the group on your right….the RIGHT group ha… just kidding…
Anyway, to respond to MZ and Joseph Pietro Riolo about native American “Sign Language” and those used by monks…
Can we really compare those languages to the signed languages used and passed on by Deaf people in various cultures?
Admittedly I dont know that much about those two sets of communication systems to call them actual languages. With my limited linguistic knowledge, I believe those are basically codes not real languages, like Morse Code is, or like the flag system, as well as Esparanto (spelling?) the false language developed for cross-linguistic dialogues for political or business needs. Those are very limiting. Their grammar is very basic. They exist for limited use. Also they need to be learned, not naturally acquired.
So using those points: the “signed language” of native Americans are evidently used for political discussions with speakers from other tribes, but I doubt it’s used within tribes.
Surely, if there were Deaf people in the tribes and if the others loved them and considered them part of the tribe, they will develop a system and if its inherited it will become more of a language, bringing forth a distinct culture with its distinct rules.
I will surely love to see what those languages look like.
David, you were referring to actual languages of Deaf people that have cultures surrounding them and are passed down from generation to generation (downwards and sideways).
When Deaf people become more self-actualized in seeking their Deafhood, and more interdependent with each other and independent of audism, our languages must and will continue developing into a more sophisticated language appropriate for a sophisticated Deaf community.
This is what we need to stand up and push for…instead of being stuck with our dysconscious audism and keeping that “good enough” mentality that leads to linguicism (language racism) upon ASL and other natural signed languages.
January 10th, 2009 on 9:21 pm
David and everyone,
Magnificeto! David brillantly pointed out to the Martha’s Vineyard island as a perfect example what will happen to our actual language of the deaf (DEAF). I really never thought of it in the first place.
*waving hands to David for the proven theory*
In response to MZ, the Native American intertribal sign languages were more like the diplomatic channels of conveying and relaying communication between different spoken languages of their own tribes than the monolothic culture.
No questions about sythenizing our own ASL language by the CI users and other various form of communication methods over generations.
Look at the past 80 years of ASL language quality as compared to the last 10 years of ASL ussage are much contrast. Deaf people nowadays spend more time on text communication than before and sublty influence our ASL quality usage.
Ella Mae Lentz, clenched fist to what you said about the audism seeped into our deaf community and compromise our ASL usage.
I still wait for us to mobilize ourselves for the federal protection of our beloved language to keep from being ostrascized and flattened out by the future eugnecists, etc.
RLM
January 10th, 2009 on 10:02 pm
Hi everyone above!
Thank you so much for sharing your views with us. I really enjoy this very much.
Miskazena,
Thanks for your comments. Yes your discussion is very interesting about Native American sign language. I agree with Ella and RLM about that. It is more of political dialogue among tribes rather than daily life of Native American people. Yes we need somebody to research on that. Of course we are no expert in taht area but we have noticed the difference between daily life of language and political communication.
Hi Don G,
Yes right on. I agree with you about CODA and their future children that would not use ASL anymore in long term due to no purpose. I find that interesting and I think we need to find someone who could research on Martha’s Vineyard Island and anywhere similar to it.
Jeffery,
Thanks and I like that… Deaf and ASL They ROCK! That’s cool! SMile
ZenMonkey,
Yes there are plenty of mysteries in our society and our way of life in both of hearing and Deaf world. We have long way to learn and we pray that our language and our Deaf existence will not be destroyed.
Hi Shel,
Thanks. Yes! ASL is tied to Deaf Culture. No question about that. Without Deaf, then ASL will be gone as well as Deaf Culture!
Hi Deb Ann,
Thanks for inspiring us! Smile!
Hi Nick,
Good to have you back and talk with us. YEs we all have acquired language naturally no matter who we are (either Deaf or Hearing or ASL or English). All languages have been changed gradually based on economies, cultures, politics and geographies.
Hi Mike,
Yes they would reduce natural langauge to codes or modes for different reasons but not natural language anymore. You got the point.
Hi Joseph,
Thanks for bringing up “monk sign language” Yes I agree that it is not the same as natural language. It is more of learned communication rather than natural language. I think we need someone to look into that to get more facts and docments. We need that so that we will understand the whole picture better.
Hi Deafsky,
Yep, you got it right. Same with Latin language that is one of a dead language. Only one group that still uses Latin Language is Catholic Church members (much older people) now younger people are no longer using latin language. I just found out that Catholic Church is trying to get Latin lanaguage back to church.. Intersting to see what happened.
Hi Ella,
Yes of course right group, no question asked! Yes I agree with you about American Native Sign Language and Monk Sign Language that are not the same as our ASL. Your argument is valid and we need someone who would work on them (reserach)to find facts and make documents. It must be very interesting. I hope somebody will do that.
Yes I am talking about everyday (natural) language that we all use… Yes I agree with you about Deafhood that is very much part of creation of language. Fantastic isnt it!
Hi RLM,
Thanks. I agree with you about intertribal sign languages are different from everyday natural language except for Native American Deaf people. It is fantastic for us to learn more about more complication of communication and languages. We all can learn from them. Yes you are right all languages are changed gradully by the societies themselves.
Yes we need to lobby government to protect our sign languages… or linguicism and audism would destroy our ASL and Deaf Society
By the way, I will make another vlog soon…
Deafchip
January 11th, 2009 on 12:40 am
Hi DeafChip –
About Indian Sign Language, I have a friend who did her Master’s thesis on Native American Indian Sign Language. Yes, it was primarily used for diplomatic contact (and for certain religious rituals where silence is sacred). But they also used it with their Deaf children when they found they had Deaf children.
My friend also analyzed the Indian Sign Language, and she says that it does have a grammar and rules — maybe not quite as sophisticated as ASL and other natural sign languages, but pretty close.
January 11th, 2009 on 9:27 am
Dr. Don G,
Bingo! Thanks for sharing your knowledge from your friend’s Master thesis on Native American Sign Language.
Never thought about the Native American sign language among their deaf tribal membres!
RLM
January 12th, 2009 on 4:12 pm
Joseph Pietro Riolo mentions the monastic sign languages (vid.supra #9) and bimodal communication. In the principles of linguistics, monastic sign languages — or in cloistered convents — are not languages. What they utilise is iconic gestures. Daddy, who was an international foreign language translator (he himself majored in Spanish linguistics at Barcelona) and granduncle, who was a priest in China for many years, and I visited their friend, a monk, in a Franciscan monastery in Worcester, Massachusetts. The monk showed me some iconic gestures utilised by the monks in the monastery during the hours of silence:: plant, jam, coffee, jug. He told Daddy to explain to me that the monks utilised neither verbs nor SVO. Ergo, no language. During an interview for The Buff and Blue, I personally asked Stokoe some questions in 1974. He completely agreed with the monk. To meet the linguistic principles, a language must contain SVO (Noam Chomsky’s universal rules for grammar (1957).
Mr. Riolo, bimodal communication means the use of two different languages simultaneously. Teachers, who do not know sign language adequately, are apt to use the bimodal communication with many missing ASL; thereby, confusing signing students. Worse yet, hearing teachers more often than not neglect to sign each word in ASL he speaks with voice in English, French, Russian, or whatsoever. ABC’s Barbara Walters asked Miss America Heather Whitestone why it was that she did not use ASL. To which Miss Whitesone asked her if she (Miss Walters) could speak French and German simultaneously. She got it immediately! Sign language or get an interpreter.
For your homework, Joseph Pietro Riolo, read my late friend Hilde Schlesigner’s “Sign and Sound”. Dr. Schlesinger supported my articles about sign language in 1976. It was she who introduced BiModal Communication. It leads to nothing but to the Tower of Babel. Read a blogger about his confusion about English from an English professor who used BC.
January 13th, 2009 on 7:02 pm
Responding to the comment made by Ms. Jean Boutcher (dated January 12, 2009 at 4:12pm):
I recommend reading http://user.dtcc.edu/~mancini/papers/bc1.html to understand what I meant by bimodal communication.
As for whether monastic sign languages are actually proper languages, it all depends on how a language is defined. There is no consensus on the definition of language.
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
January 15th, 2009 on 4:39 pm
Joseph Pietro Riolo,
You are correct that what defines a language is just theories like many other stuff of human life..however, the linguistics field do have some consensus on many basic stuff of what languages are made of….enough consensus and good theorical basis for us to acknowledge or argue what is a true language and what is not.
But….no matter what scientists say and study, it all comes down to the basic human experience and common sense (that can be clarified some by theories and research), and Deaf people sure have plenty of that!!!